Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #90 Charlie LILLIE and his Mrs. (Part 2)

Last week I featured this photograph of an unidentified couple in Brookport, Massac County, Illinois.

mrin39470-1970s-charlie-lillie-with-wife
Charlie LILLIE with a woman I believe was his wife in the 1970s

I compared it to this photograph (below) in which Charlie was identified with his wife. I also included a link to the 2014 obituary online of the woman seen as Charles Newton LILLIE’s wife on his death record in 1984.

mrin39470-lillie-charlie-and-wife-cutout
Charlie Lillie and Mrs. cutout of group photo taken around September 1966.
What my readers thought…

Several of my readers noticed differences in the women. Amy thought Fannie May Sides Lillie’s smaller nose and more delicate features in the obituary photo did not match the women above. Vera also said the nose looked totally wrong as noses get bigger with age, not smaller.

Is it an old wives’ tale that a person’s nose and ears continue to grow? I checked around and learned it’s a misconception that cartilage continues to grow as you age. The skin of the nose and ears starts to sag making them more prominent while cheeks cave in a bit. It’s more of an optical illusion we can blame on gravity.

More help came from Joe…

My cousin Joe Rooney sent a genealogy source that couldn’t be ignored. His Mom’s address book. He didn’t send me the actual book but took the time to type up all the addresses for me. Charles & Evelyn Lillie had a P.O. box number in Dallas, North Carolina. This is the town Charlie was living in when he died in 1984. To keep this in perspective, Joe’s mother Ruby died in 1981 so the address is pre-1981.

Who was Evelyn?

We know Fannie May SIDES was the name of Charles Newton LILLIE’s wife from his 1984 death transcript from FamilySearch’s collection North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994.

1984charlesnewtonlilliedeath
“North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994,” database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG42-CMT : accessed 14 February 2017), Charles Newton Lillie, 13 Dec 1984; citing Lincolnton, Lincoln, North Carolina, v 49A cn 49094, State Department of Archives and History, Raleigh; FHL microfilm 1,985,160.

Who was Evelyn seen in Ruby’s address book?

On Ancestry I found a marriage in the Kentucky, Marriage Index, 1973-1999 collection.  Evelyn P. HILL married Charles N. LILLIE on 26 October 1974 in McCracken County, Kentucky. The bride was 60 and the groom 65. Both had been previously married and the marriages had ended with the death of a spouse. The number of previous marriages was not included.

I searched North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994 for a death record for Evelyn and found she died on 8 June 1980. Her home address was the same as Charles’ in the 1984 death record at right. Her maiden name was PIERCE.

Evelyn and Charles were married from 1974 until her death in 1980. Charles married again, before his own death in 1984, to Fannie May SIDES.

The featured photo at top must be Charles Newton LILLIE (1908-1984) and Evelyn Loraine PIERCE (1914-1980).

How many times was Charles actually married?

I’m figuring at least four times as I found an early marriage for him in 1933 in Sikeston, Scott County, Missouri. I am confident this is Charles as he was living in Sikeston with his mother Geneva and his sisters Emma Roxie and Alberta Editha at the time of the 1930 census. Charles married Muriel Hurt on 1 July 1933. Although both were from Scott County, they obtained the license in Mississippi County and were married the same day by a Baptist minister in Sikeston.

I couldn’t find either of them in the 1940 census. Charles’ mother Geneva was in Detroit with her oldest married daughter.

On Missouri Digital Heritage I found a single young girl named Muriel Hurt born in 1915 and died in 1937. Was this the same girl who married Charles? Did the marriage not last? The marriage license was signed and returned but the names of their parents were not included.

Who was Mrs. Charles Lillie in 1966?

This leaves me with a void between 1933 and 1974 filled only by Mrs. Charles LILLIE seen in the photo from 1966. Was she the only unknown Mrs. Lillie? I’m beginning to think a newspaper subscription might be helpful.

Until next week, when I’ll be sharing a series of brick wall photographs.

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #90 Charlie LILLIE and his Mrs.

There were only three color photographs in this collection. Two of them were from the 1970s and shared in Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #73 Ruth Joanna LILLIE, Part 2.

The last of the three is of an unidentified couple in Brookport, Massac County, Illinois. The location was recognized by my cousin Joe Rooney when he labeled it years ago.

mrin39470-1970s-charlie-lillie-with-wife

The man’s plaid jacket and turtleneck, the woman’s blouse with long pointed collar and button up vest, and their glasses – these point to the 1970s. In the background at the left, behind the man, is a light colored car with a black top. Very little can be seen of it but I believe it’s the same car as in the post mentioned above. [See the photo of Ruth Lillie in front of her car at her home in Brookport, Massac County, Illinois.]

mrin39470-lillie-charlie-and-wife-cutout
Cutout of group photo taken around September 1966.

Cousin Joe shared photos from his private collection of family photos with me when he saw my interest in the old photographs. Joe’s mother Ruby was Ruth’s sister. In the private collection I found a group photo of six. In the group were a man and woman I believe are the couple in the first photo. (see cutout above)

Look at the way the man holds the woman in both photos. How the woman’s shoulder fits in under the man’s arm. Compare the man’s nose and smile. He is wearing glasses in one and has glasses in breast pocket in the other. I think, at least, the man is the same in both pictures.

Who were they? This is the group photo taken in 1966.

mrin39470-lillieroxieraymondrubyruthcharlieandwife
Group photo from Joe Rooney’s private collection.

It was labeled on the back with the following names.

mrin39470-lillieroxieraymondrubyruthcharlieandwifeback
Back of group photo from Joe Rooney’s private collection.

Who were all these LILLIEs? Raymond b. 1904, Ruby b. 1909, and Ruth b. 1907 were siblings and children of Florence ROYALTY (1868-1946) and Isaac Spencer “Ike” LILLIE (1872-1932)

Roxie b. 1905 and Charlie b. 1908 were also siblings and the same age as Raymond, Ruby, and Ruth. Ike’s father Albert Spencer LILLIE (1848-1913) remarried after the death of his wife Pernecia Elizabeth GLASS (1852-1899) and had three children with his second wife Geneva Elyse MASON.

I was confident with the man in the top photograph being Charlie LILLIE because he, along with his sisters, were mentioned (without names) in the 1966 obituary of Ike’s brother John Calvin “Jack” LILLIE (1883-1966). Jack was the last living child of Albert and Pernecia.

My 52 Ancestors: #14 Albert Spencer LILLIE (1848-1913) ~ Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can was the very first in what became this series. I mentioned Albert’s marriage to Geneva MASON but did not include the fact that she gave him three more children making him the father of fourteen. Since there were no known photos of his children from his second marriage in this collection, I did not bother to research them in-depth. Their children were Emma Roxie, Charlie, and Alberta Editha.

Was his son Charlie married? Could this be his wife? No name was given for her on the back of the group photo so I had to go back to the beginning. Check census records from birth until 1940. Search for possible marriage records. Check for a death record.

I found a death record for Charles Newton LILLIE who died in 1984 in North Carolina on Ancestry.com in the North Carolina, Death Indexes, 1908-2004 collection. The abstracted information (there was no image) was not enough to confirm it was the same man. FamilySearch had more abstracted information in their collection North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994.

1984charlesnewtonlilliedeath
“North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994,” database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG42-CMT : accessed 14 February 2017), Charles Newton Lillie, 13 Dec 1984; citing Lincolnton, Lincoln, North Carolina, v 49A cn 49094, State Department of Archives and History, Raleigh; FHL microfilm 1,985,160.

County and state of birth and the parents names (although off a bit) are a match. Most important, the name of his wife was included.

I finally found an obituary online for his widow. Fannie May Sides LILLIE died on 28 July 2014 at CaroMont Regional Medical Center, Gastonia. I have not found a marriage record and her husband was not mentioned in the obituary. However, per the U.S. Public Records Index, 1950-1993, in the early 1990s she lived at the address found on Charles’ NC death record.

I would have liked to include the photo from her online obituary for comparison in this post but without permission I ask you to click on the link to see it. Does she look like either or both of the women in the photos above?

Charles Newton LILLIE (1908-1984) and Fannie May SIDES (1928-2014) are the names I would like to add to the top photo from the 1970s. Would you agree with me?

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #10 LILLIE Family 1920 Reunion

In 1920 following the end of the World War, or The Great War as the Britons referred to it until the 1940s, Isaac and Florence LILLIE got the family together for a reunion in Pope County, Illinois. Tables were loaded with food for over forty guests.

tableA family group photograph was taken in front of the Isaac S. Lillie home.

reunionThis group photograph did not have any persons identified. While working with the photographs from Joe Rooney’s collection I’ve become familiar with some of the faces in this family. I was able to pick out Isaac and Florence in the very back. Their son Roy and Ike’s brother Tom in the back row. Tom’s wife Florence and Isaac’s brother-in-law Lyon Glass in the middle row. Do you remember Chester with his his big catch of fish? He would be the young man at the far left by the porch swing.

To compare photos I did a screen split and viewed photos side by side, zooming in on persons in the group photo. When I got to the next photograph I made an interesting discovery. Can you tell what it was?

smallgroupTen men and a woman are lined up in front of a bank as seen on the door behind persons #10 and #23. Joe Rooney labeled it “SamRoy3rdleft.” I compared photos of Samuel Royalty “Roy” Lillie, son of Isaac, with this photo and #5 is Roy. But who are the others?

I then noticed everyone in the lineup was also in the family group photo. More importantly, they were ALL wearing the same clothes. Could this photograph have been taken the same day as the reunion? With the exception of Roy, is it a lineup of the sons and daughter of Albert Spencer Lillie and Pernecia Elizabeth Glass?

When I made this discovery I emailed Joe explaining that I believed the lineup to be a photo of the Lillie brothers with their sister, with the exception of Roy. He then sent  another copy of the family group photo with names written in for 27 persons. It was his “working” copy. At one time while researching the family Joe had travelled around visiting the cemeteries and older living relatives. Joe first noticed the family group photo while visiting with his cousin Edna Elizabeth Lillie. He made a sketch and added names of people Edna identified. Then he went to visit Edna’s sister-in-law Marie Losnegard Lillie who was living in a nursing home. She was able to identify a few more people.

Joe agreed with my idea that the lineup was representative of the Lillie siblings. They are lined up from left to right, youngest to oldest. As Roy was a grandson and not of son of Albert and Pernecia we believe that he is standing in for Reuben D. Lillie b. 1891.

Joe wrote about Reuben’s absence, “Marie Losnegard told me that Reuben Lillie had been off to The Great War and decided to stay there and not return to the USA afterwards. I subsequently spoke to Edna Lang (Lillie) and she laughed and said Reuben Lillie robbed banks and went underground. The blacksheep.

Wouldn’t it be great to find out if this story of Reuben being a bank robber is true or false? I found he married in Bexar County, Texas, in 1918. Reuben and his wife were roomers in Nye County, Nevada, in 1920. His wife was identified on the “working” copy (see #18 below) but I wonder if she, a fairly new bride, would go the reunion without her husband. I found no trace of Reuben or his wife in 1930 and 1940. They simply disappeared after 1920.

Key to descendants of Albert Spencer LILLIE and Pernecia Elizabeth GLASS identified in family group photo as well as persons who may have been present but have not been identified. (click on link to see descendancy list)

keytophotoKey (identified persons in bold print)
1. Isaac Spencer Lillie b. 1872, husband of #2
2. Florence Royalty b. 1868, wife of #1
3. Neele Owens Lillie b. 1898, wife of #6 (UPDATED: 17 Nov 2016)
4. unidentified woman
5. Samuel Royalty Lillie b. 1895, son of #1 and #2
6. Robert Wiley Lillie b. 1895, brother of #1
7. John Calvin “Jack” Lillie b. 1883, brother of #1
8. Jesse Lyon Lillie b. 1893, brother of #1
9. George Wyte Lillie b. 1874, brother of #1
10. Thomas Nathaniel “Tom” Lillie b. 1881, brother of #1, husband of #22
11. Frank Greenberry Lillie b. 1877, brother of #1
12. Albert Preston Lillie b. 1887, brother of #1  OR Reese Gentry Lillie b. 1892, son of #1
13. Edward Bicourt “Ed” Lillie b. 1889, brother of #1
14. Chester Beryl Lillie b. 1900, son of #9
15. identified as Anna ? Lillie (poss. Annie Hester Mosley Lillie b. 1880, wife of #11)
16. unknown woman
17. unknown woman
18. Elizabeth Ruth Breitzka Lillie b. 1893, wife of Reuben Lillie
19. Green Berry Lyon Glass b. 1864, brother of #2
20. Allie D. Obermark Glass b. 1870, wife of #19
21. unknown woman (poss. Marie Green Lillie b. 1875, wife of #9)
22. Florence Sibbie Kaufman Lillie b. 1880, wife of #10
23. Rosa Lee Lillie Jeffords b. 1873, sister of #1
24. unknown woman
25. Jenava “Geneva” Mason Lillie b 1871, stepmother of #1
26. Eugene N. “Blue” Lillie b. 1906, son of #11
27. Eli Burton Lillie b. 1915, son of #11
28. Edgar Jacob Lillie b. 1914, daughter of Reese
29. Effie Florence Lillie b. 1912, daughter of Reese
30. boy (poss. Raymond Egbert “Splitty” Lillie b. 1904, son of #1)
31. Elsie E. Lillie b. 1909, daughter of #11
32. Ruth Joanna Lillie b. 1907, daughter of #1
33. Hazel Vickers Lillie b. 1897, wife of #8
34. identified as Verna Lillie (she was not born until 1927;  may be her mother Jessie Loretta McKellar Lillie b. 1890, wife of #7)
35. Ruby Pernecia Lillie b. 1909, daughter of #1
36. boy
37. girl
38. girl (poss. Elaine Lillie b. 1913, daughter of #11)
39. boy
40. girl (poss. Doris Lillie b. 1916, daughter of #8)
41. Edna Elizabeth Lillie b. 1917, daughter of Reese
42. child (girl or boy?)

Persons, listed oldest to youngest, who may be in the photo but not identified:
Marie Green Lillie b. 1875, wife of #9
Annie Hester Mosley Lillie b. 1880, wife of #11
Albert Preston Lillie b. 1887, brother of #1
Jessie Loretta McKellar Lillie b. 1890, wife of #7
Reese Gentry Lillie b. 1892, son of #1
Myra Stewart Lillie b. 1892, wife of #13
Pearl Eve Lillie b. 1896, daughter of #9
Neele Owens Lillie b. 1898, wife of #6
Thelma Holt Lillie b. 1901, wife of #5
Raymond Egbert “Splitty” Lillie b. 1904, son of #1
Emma Roxey Lillie b. 1906, daughter of #25
Bella P. Lillie b. 1907, daughter of #9
Charles W. Lillie b. 1908, son of #25
William Chester Lillie b. 1911, son of #13
Elaine Lillie b. 1913, daughter of #11
Edith Lillie b. 1913, daughter of #25
Anna Pernecia “Necie” Lillie b. 1913, daughter of of #13
Charles Lillie b. 1914, son of #8
Harlan J. Lillie b. 1914, son of #7
June Rozena Lillie b. 1916, daughter of #7
Edith M. Lillie b. 1916, daughter of of #13
Doris Lillie b. 1916, daughter of #8

No babies or very young infants are in the photograph. There were two children born 1918-1919. James E. Lillie b. May 1919 son of #13 and Florence Alberta Lillie b. Oct 1918 daughter of #7.

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2015, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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52 Ancestors: #14 Albert Spencer LILLIE (1848-1913) ~ Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can

Week 14 (April 2-8) – Favorite Photo: Who is in a favorite photo of yours? Or tell the story of the photo itself — where was it taken, what was the event?

With Easter weekend coming up, I was procrastinating, and I went off and did something completely different.

The family I had planned for this week was not quite finished. The information was in draft form and sources were cited. I had to write in details to make it an interesting read. Only I didn’t have a favorite photograph (or any at all) for the family to fit the proposed theme. Amy Johnson Crow says there is no 52 Ancestors police but I’m enjoying trying to fit the theme each week.

Did I mention how I was dawdling and dragging my feet? There are always things I want to get done and I usually find something more interesting to do instead.

Six weeks ago I received a zip file with 251 images of about 150 old photographs from my 4th cousin once removed, Joe ROONEY. His cousin Sandra LILLIE had saved them from the trash  can. Joe and I share my 4th great-grandparents Landon S. GOWING and Sally CRISP as ancestors. The story of how these old photographs came into his possession is included in this note he wrote:

15 February 2015: This collection of photographs was scanned at 300 dpi color by me. The original photos were sent by Sandra Lillie about ten years ago after she found them cleaning out a relative’s garage in Southern Illinois, finding no other takers (suckers). She believes they were a collection by L Vance Lillie. Many of the pictures seemed to be removed from frames or were in albums evidenced by fading characteristics and may have been from other’s collections. I scanned the reverse if there was laboratory advertising or writing. Some of the authors’ identification may be figured out of the handwriting matches. I did not scan the reverse of photos where there was only a three digit number that I believe to be sequence numbers on a roll of film. I didn’t spot any obvious helpful commonalities.

How do you choose your favorite photograph out of a 150 when many are of people who aren’t even in your database?

On Friday I was home alone (no interruptions) and decided to have a quick look through the photos and compare names with my database.

Cousin Joe derived file names from personal recognition or what was written on the reverse side. He used surnames first, given names next, and tried to find some means of differentiating photos of the same person by including detail: sitting, standing, wearing a hat, a date or some other detail from the photo. The pictures that were not identifiable he labeled with UNK and details.

I was able to match the most obvious LILLIE family members. Landon S. GOWING and his wife Sally CRISP’s daughter Martha C. “Martissa” GOWING married Wyatt F. LILLY in 1833 in Amherst County, Virginia. They moved to Caldwell County, Kentucky, where they raised 9 children. One son, Joe’s great-grandfather, Albert Spencer LILLIE, changed the spelling of his surname.

Albert S. LILLIE (1848-1913) is actually the closest relative in the entire batch of photos, being the nephew of my 3rd great-grandmother Clementine (Gowing) DEMPSEY. There were three photos of him in the batch along with scans of the reverse sides giving more information.

The first photo was taken when Albert was 22 years old.

ASLFour different persons wrote information on the back of this tinplate. In ink at the top: Albert S. Lillie. Directly below in pencil and very faded only the beginning of Albert can be read. In the center, again in pencil, A. S. Lillie 22 yrs. At the bottom, in yet another handwriting in ballpoint pen, Isaac Lillie father.

ASLbackIn the second photo of Albert S. LILLIE, he is with a woman. On the back Samuel Royalty LILLIE or his sister, Ruth J. LILLIE wrote, “My Grand Pa was going to marry Mrs. Roper But she died. Then he married Geneva.” From this information, the photo can be dated at between 1900-1904 as his first wife died in 1899 and he was married to Geneva MASON 6 years in 1910 as seen on the census.

aslroperMy favorite of the three is this one:

aslold

Joe Rooney has kindly given me permission to use these photographs on my blog.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

Old Photographs Help Solve Relationships in Family Tree

While I worked through the other names, the pieces of the puzzle began to form a larger picture of the family tree. I ended up attaching nearly 120 photos to 51 persons in my database. About 30 photos remain, 10 with names, and the rest being unidentified persons.

Lynn Vance LILLIE and Joe ROONEY’s grandmother Florence ROYALTY, wife of Isaac Spencer LILLIE, appears to be the lady who plays the leading roll in the story of how these photos came to be collected. Not only did she collect photos of her siblings and their families, her husband Isaac Spencer LILLIE’s family, her mother-in-law Pernecia Elizabeth GLASS’s family,  but also of her stepmother Johanna PADDOCK’s family. I believe her children Samuel and Ruth who lived with her until her death in 1946 may have taken over her collection of photos which then went to Samuel’s son Lynn Vance LILLIE.

When Joe sent me the digital files he wrote, “Or I can mail the originals to you .” I didn’t take him up on offer as I didn’t know how serious he was. When I let him know how all the photos fit into his family tree he may be happy that he kept the originals.

I asked Joe about using the photos and he kindly wrote, Please use them at your will.  I feel it is keeping it in the family and don’t need credit.  If anything, I appreciate your evaluations, identifications and detective work.  I’m hopeful you and yours enjoy them.  On a blog, in a book, above a cloud.” So a spin-off of this blog post will be coming as I share the photos, one person at a time.

Genealogy Sketch

Name: Albert Spencer LILLIE
Parents: Wyatt F. LILLY and Martha C. “Martissa” GOWING
Spouse: Pernecia Elizabeth GLASS(*) and Geneva MASON
Children: Isaac S., George W., Frank G., Rosa L., Thomas N., John C., Albert P., Edward B., Reuben D., Jesse L., and Robert W.
Whereabouts: Caldwell County, KY; Trigg County, KY; and Pope County, IL
Relationship to Cathy Meder-Dempsey: 1st cousin 4 times removed

* Albert Spencer LILLIE
* son of Martha C. Martissa GOWING
* grandson of Landon S. GOWING
* nephew of Clementine M. GOWING
* 1C of Mary M. DEMPSEY
* 1C1R of Laura Belle INGRAM
* 1C2R of Fred Rothwell DEMPSEY
* 1C3R of Fred Roosevelt DEMPSEY
* 1C4R of Cathy Meder-Dempsey

© 2015 Cathy Meder-Dempsey

52ancestors-2015This is my weekly entry for Amy Johnson Crow’s challenge:
52 Ancestors in 52 Weeks – 2015 Edition. It was so successful in 2014 that genealogists wanted to continue or join in on the fun in 2015. Be sure to check out the other great posts by visiting Amy’s blog No Story Too Small where she’ll be posting the weekly recap on Thurdays and allowing all participants to leave a link to their post(s) in the comments.

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