Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #91 A Series of Brick Wall Photos

The photographs I’m sharing today were taken with a brick wall as the backdrop. None are labeled but in the first, I recognize Florence ROYALTY and her brother-in-law George Wyte LILLIE. I don’t know who the woman in the middle is. There were two copies of this photo in the collection, one had June 14 written across the top but no year.

royaltyflorence-lilliemaybe4picchildren2
George Wyte LILLIE, an unknown woman, and Florence ROYALTY

For comparison here are two photos taken around 1930. Definitely, before 19 November 1932 as this is when Isaac died.

ReeseFlorence
Isaac LILLIE (1872-1932) with his wife Florence ROYALTY (1868-1946)
1920sRaymondIkeRoy
Isaac and Florence’s sons Raymond (1904-1970), on the left, and Roy (1895-1979), on the right, with their uncle George Wyte LILLIE (1874-1943) in the middle.

 

The above two photos were taken in Detroit, Michigan, in front of the apartment building the family was living in. Although the coat with the fur collar worn by Florence and the light colored hat with the dark band worn by George appear to be the same, the second set of photos were most likely not taken on the same day. George in the top photo is wearing a tiny bow tie while in the lower right photo he is wearing a tie. In both pictures, he has a cigar in his hand. Also as the copy of the top photo was labeled June 14 it is very unlikely that the other two photos were not taken in the middle of June since the men are so warmly dressed.

Perhaps the next two photographs could be clues to identify the woman in the middle in the photograph at the top. Could she be the mother of the three children in these photos?

royaltyflorence-lilliemaybe4picchildren1
Three unknown children (sitting)
royaltyflorence-lilliemaybe4picchildren3
Three unknown children (standing)

Using the bricks as a guide I estimated the height of the children. From left to right, the oldest girl is 17-18 bricks=51-54 inches, the young boy is about 12 bricks=36 inches, and the younger girl is 15-16=45-48 inches. This matches with my estimates of their ages being from youngest to oldest, about 2 1/2, 5, and 7-8 years.

I’ve gone through the LILLIE family tree looking for siblings who were born in the 1920s. The only family group I found which would match was the family of Isaac’s youngest brother Robert Wiley LILLIE (1895-1947) with his wife Neele Audrey OWENS (1898-1942) and their children Roberta Neele b. Oct 1921, Marian Gene b. Aug 1924, and Robert Walton b. Jan 1927.

Roberta’s photo was shared in Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #7 Robert Wiley LILLIE (1895-1940).

I found a yearbook photo of Marian in the U.S., School Yearbooks, 1880-2012 database at Ancestry.

U.S. School Yearbooks, 1880-2012, (Ancestry.com : accessed 28 February 2017)

I shared the photos with Robert Walton LILLIE’s daughter Julie back in December hoping to get them into a post at the end of the year. She wrote, “Cathy, I have never seen this picture before, and in my opinion, they don’t look like my Dad and (his) sisters. But, I could be wrong. Let me send to my sister and see if she recognizes it. I will get back to you.” After sharing with her sister she wrote, “My sister didn’t recognize the picture either, nor did she think it was them. But, neither one of us is 100% sure.”

I still think the children could be an older Roberta, her sister Marian, and their little brother Robert. I sent a new request to Julie to take a look at the lady in the middle in the top photo.

robertandmarian
Robert and Marian. Photograph courtesy of family member.

Julie got back to me and sent some photographs including the above for comparison. I believe the children’s blond hair darkened over the years. This would explain the darker hair of the older girl in the photo of the three children. Is she the same person as Roberta seen with the cute blond haircut? Between the time the bottom photo of Robert and Marian was taken and Marian’s picture for the school yearbook, her hair darkened. Alas, Robert and the young boy were not very good studies in either photo. The one above, sent by Julie, shows Robert a bit older than the little boy in the photo with the girls but the cute newsboy cap hides his eyes. In the pictures with the girls, the young boy is looking down, hiding his face.

While we were chatting, Julie told me something I did not know. My research on Robert Sr. and his wife Neele was difficult, to say the least. I never found them together on a census. They were married on 10 April 1920. In 1930 Neele and her oldest daughter Roberta were lodgers in a household. No trace of daughter Marian and husband Robert. I had no idea there was also a son Robert until Julie’s son contacted me.

I have never understood why my Father had to go live with his Uncle Ray and Aunt Clara. I don’t remember my Dad ever explaining it to me, and perhaps he didn’t know for sure. Neele and Robert were married twice and divorced twice. I know my Dad had a rough childhood…..My father seemed to adore his Mother, but not a lot of talk or praise of his Father…..don’t worry about bringing up skeletons, as I am perfectly aware that there are many.

Since we now know Robert and Neele’s marriage had its difficulties, I want you to take another look at the photo at the beginning of this post with the young woman in the middle between George and Florence. Do you notice what I noticed? I have to admit I didn’t see this until I looked at the second copy I have of the same photo which is dated June 14 (without a year).

Is the young woman pregnant? If this was Neele, what happened to the child? Could she have given birth while in Detroit? If this isn’t Neele, would it be possible to find a woman who gave birth sometime after June 14th?

Will someone recognize the children and the young woman in this series of photos taken in front of a brick wall? Are they Neele Audrey Owens Lillie and her children Roberta Neele, Marian Gene, and Robert Walton?

Photos of Neele were shared in Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #79 The Unusual Hairdo (Identified).

These are the last of the photographs from the collection I was gifted by my cousin Joe Rooney who took them off the hands of his cousin Sandra Lillie who saved them from the trash can. I will be taking a week or two off from writing about this collection but will be back with a final post, a synopsis of the family connections made during the process of writing about each of the over 150 photos.

Would you like to re-visit the photos? You can see them on my Pinterest board Old Photographs Saved from Trash Can.

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #90 Charlie LILLIE and and his Mrs. (Part 2)

Last week I featured this photograph of an unidentified couple in Brookport, Massac County, Illinois.

mrin39470-1970s-charlie-lillie-with-wife
Charlie LILLIE with a woman I believe was his wife in the 1970s

I compared it to this photograph (below) in which Charlie was identified with his wife. I also included a link to the 2014 obituary online of the woman seen as Charles Newton LILLIE’s wife on his death record in 1984.

mrin39470-lillie-charlie-and-wife-cutout
Charlie Lillie and Mrs. cutout of group photo taken around September 1966.
What my readers thought…

Several of my readers noticed differences in the women. Amy thought Fannie May Sides Lillie’s smaller nose and more delicate features in the obituary photo did not match the women above. Vera also said the nose looked totally wrong as noses get bigger with age, not smaller.

Is it an old wives’ tale that a person’s nose and ears continue to grow? I checked around and learned it’s a misconception that cartilage continues to grow as you age. The skin of the nose and ears starts to sag making them more prominent while cheeks cave in a bit. It’s more of an optical illusion we can blame on gravity.

More help came from Joe…

My cousin Joe Rooney sent a genealogy source that couldn’t be ignored. His Mom’s address book. He didn’t send me the actual book but took the time to type up all the addresses for me. Charles & Evelyn Lillie had a P.O. box number in Dallas, North Carolina. This is the town Charlie was living in when he died in 1984. To keep this in perspective, Joe’s mother Ruby died in 1981 so the address is pre-1981.

Who was Evelyn?
1984charlesnewtonlilliedeath
“North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994,” database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG42-CMT : accessed 14 February 2017), Charles Newton Lillie, 13 Dec 1984; citing Lincolnton, Lincoln, North Carolina, v 49A cn 49094, State Department of Archives and History, Raleigh; FHL microfilm 1,985,160.

We know Fannie May SIDES was the name of Charles Newton LILLIE’s wife from his 1984 death transcript from FamilySearch’s collection North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994.

Who was Evelyn seen in Ruby’s address book?

On Ancestry I found a marriage in the Kentucky, Marriage Index, 1973-1999 collection.  Evelyn P. HILL married Charles N. LILLIE on 26 October 1974 in McCracken County, Kentucky. The bride was 60 and the groom 65. Both had been previously married and the marriages had ended with the death of a spouse. The number of previous marriages was not included.

I searched North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994 for a death record for Evelyn and found she died on 8 June 1980. Her home address was the same as Charles’ in the 1984 death record at right. Her maiden name was PIERCE.

Evelyn and Charles were married from 1974 until her death in 1980. Charles married again, before his own death in 1984, to Fannie May SIDES.

The featured photo at top must be Charles Newton LILLIE (1908-1984) and Evelyn Loraine PIERCE (1914-1980).

How many times was Charles actually married?

I’m figuring at least four times as I found an early marriage for him in 1933 in Sikeston, Scott County, Missouri. I am confident this is Charles as he was living in Sikeston with his mother Geneva and his sisters Emma Roxie and Alberta Editha at the time of the 1930 census. Charles married Muriel Hurt on 1 July 1933. Although both were from Scott County, they obtained the license in Mississippi County and were married the same day by a Baptist minister in Sikeston.

I couldn’t find either of them in the 1940 census. Charles’ mother Geneva was in Detroit with her oldest married daughter.

On Missouri Digital Heritage I found a single young girl named Muriel Hurt born in 1915 and died in 1937. Was this the same girl who married Charles? Did the marriage not last? The marriage license was signed and returned but the names of their parents were not included.

Who was Mrs. Charles Lillie in 1966?

This leaves me with a void between 1933 and 1974 filled only by Mrs. Charles LILLIE seen in the photo from 1966. Was she the only unknown Mrs. Lillie? I’m beginning to think a newspaper subscription might be helpful.

Until next week, when I’ll be sharing a series of brick wall photographs.

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #90 Charlie LILLIE and his Mrs.

There were only three color photographs in this collection. Two of them were from the 1970s and shared in Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #73 Ruth Joanna LILLIE, Part 2.

The last of the three is of an unidentified couple in Brookport, Massac County, Illinois. The location was recognized by my cousin Joe Rooney when he labeled it years ago.

mrin39470-1970s-charlie-lillie-with-wife

The man’s plaid jacket and turtleneck, the woman’s blouse with long pointed collar and button up vest, and their glasses – these point to the 1970s. In the background at the left, behind the man, is a light colored car with a black top. Very little can be seen of it but I believe it’s the same car as in the post mentioned above. [See the photo of Ruth Lillie in front of her car at her home in Brookport, Massac County, Illinois.]

mrin39470-lillie-charlie-and-wife-cutout
Cutout of group photo taken around September 1966.

Cousin Joe shared photos from his private collection of family photos with me when he saw my interest in the old photographs. Joe’s mother Ruby was Ruth’s sister. In the private collection I found a group photo of six. In the group were a man and woman I believe are the couple in the first photo. (see cutout above)

Look at the way the man holds the woman in both photos. How the woman’s shoulder fits in under the man’s arm. Compare the man’s nose and smile. He is wearing glasses in one and has glasses in breast pocket in the other. I think, at least, the man is the same in both pictures.

Who were they? This is the group photo taken in 1966.

mrin39470-lillieroxieraymondrubyruthcharlieandwife
Group photo from Joe Rooney’s private collection.

It was labeled on the back with the following names.

mrin39470-lillieroxieraymondrubyruthcharlieandwifeback
Back of group photo from Joe Rooney’s private collection.

Who were all these LILLIEs? Raymond b. 1904, Ruby b. 1909, and Ruth b. 1907 were siblings and children of Florence ROYALTY (1868-1946) and Isaac Spencer “Ike” LILLIE (1872-1932)

Roxie b. 1905 and Charlie b. 1908 were also siblings and the same age as Raymond, Ruby, and Ruth. Ike’s father Albert Spencer LILLIE (1848-1913) remarried after the death of his wife Pernecia Elizabeth GLASS (1852-1899) and had three children with his second wife Geneva Elyse MASON.

I was confident with the man in the top photograph being Charlie LILLIE because he, along with his sisters, were mentioned (without names) in the 1966 obituary of Ike’s brother John Calvin “Jack” LILLIE (1883-1966). Jack was the last living child of Albert and Pernecia.

My 52 Ancestors: #14 Albert Spencer LILLIE (1848-1913) ~ Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can was the very first in what became this series. I mentioned Albert’s marriage to Geneva MASON but did not include the fact that she gave him three more children making him the father of fourteen. Since there were no known photos of his children from his second marriage in this collection, I did not bother to research them in-depth. Their children were Emma Roxie, Charlie, and Alberta Editha.

Was his son Charlie married? Could this be his wife? No name was given for her on the back of the group photo so I had to go back to the beginning. Check census records from birth until 1940. Search for possible marriage records. Check for a death record.

I found a death record for Charles Newton LILLIE who died in 1984 in North Carolina on Ancestry.com in the North Carolina, Death Indexes, 1908-2004 collection. The abstracted information (there was no image) was not enough to confirm it was the same man. FamilySearch had more abstracted information in their collection North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994.

1984charlesnewtonlilliedeath
“North Carolina Deaths, 1931-1994,” database, FamilySearch (https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:FG42-CMT : accessed 14 February 2017), Charles Newton Lillie, 13 Dec 1984; citing Lincolnton, Lincoln, North Carolina, v 49A cn 49094, State Department of Archives and History, Raleigh; FHL microfilm 1,985,160.

County and state of birth and the parents names (although off a bit) are a match. Most important, the name of his wife was included.

I finally found an obituary online for his widow. Fannie May Sides LILLIE died on 28 July 2014 at CaroMont Regional Medical Center, Gastonia. I have not found a marriage record and her husband was not mentioned in the obituary. However, per the U.S. Public Records Index, 1950-1993, in the early 1990s she lived at the address found on Charles’ NC death record.

I would have liked to include the photo from her online obituary for comparison in this post but without permission I ask you to click on the link to see it. Does she look like either or both of the women in the photos above?

Charles Newton LILLIE (1908-1984) and Fannie May SIDES (1928-2014) are the names I would like to add to the top photo from the 1970s. Would you agree with me?

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #89 Everett Isaac LILLIE (1915-1944)

At one point, while doing these posts, I had to develop a system to keep track of the photographs which had been used in posts and those which still needed to be shared and written about. I keep my cousin Joe Rooney’s original scans with his naming system in a folder. Copies with my own naming/numbering system are in my Genealogy folder – where I keep all images, documents, etc. with unique MRINs. I also created a temporary folder: !NOT USED old photos. As it contains copies, I can easily delete each photograph as it is featured in a post.

There are very few photos left in the temporary folder. As I was looking  through it in preparation for a new post I noticed something about this young man.

unkmanovercoatbrickwallThe man is not identified on the back of the photo. He is wearing an overcoat and hat with a cigarette in his right hand and holding a bag in his left. The location it was taken at is familiar. The brick wall behind him is not straight. There are two and a half bricks and then the wall juts out at a tiny angle. The same as in the photos below.

ReeseFlorence
Click on photo to view post!
1920sRaymondIkeRoy
Click on photo to view post!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

It is in front of the apartment Samuel Royalty “Roy” LILLIE (1895-1979) rented at 2122 Marantette St. in Detroit, Michigan. The address is known from photographs taken about 1930 when the house number was still on the building. It is also the address at which Roy, his mother Florence, his brother Raymond, and his sister Ruth lived when the census was taken in 1930 and 1940.

In the next photograph we see Florence with her sons Roy and Raymond on the right and a young man in uniform on the left. This young man, holding a cigarette in his right hand, is Everett Isaac LILLIE. The cigarette is what made me take a closer look at the unidentified man in the photo at the top of this post and all photos of Everett.

lilliefloroyraymondandmaybeeverettOn Memorial Day 2015 I wrote about Everett Isaac LILLIE (1915-1944), son of Reese Gentry LILLY (1892-1965) and Dovie DEEN (1894-1918). Everett’s grandparents were Isaac Spencer LILLIE (1872-1932) and Florence ROYALTY (1868-1946).

lillieruthjeverettlillie
Everett with his aunt Ruth Joanna LILLIE (1907-1986)
lillieruthjeverettlilliemotherofpatriciaghaganmaybe
Ruth and Everett posing with an unidentified woman.

Everett married before going to Europe to fight during World War II leaving a pregnant wife. No marriage record has been found for them and she remains unknown. Note: The unidentified woman above is older and cannot be his wife.

In Everett’s 1944 obituary his wife and daughter are mentioned as living in New Jersey but were not named. He never knew his daughter Patricia M. LILLIE (1944-2012) who was born two months after his death. She was seen as Patricia M. KENNEDY when she married Ronald R. GHAGAN (d. 1985) in 1976 in South Windsor, Hartford, Connecticut. It is not known if she had children, grandchildren of Everett Isaac LILLIE who died serving his country.

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #88 An Unidentified Couple

unknowncoupletintype

Unidentified Couple, ca. 1870s
Photo type
: Tintype
Tintype size: 1/6 plate; 2 5/8″ x 3 1/4″
Border style: N/A
Sleeve: none
Front imprint: none
Back imprint: none
Photographer: none
Labeling: none

 

While comparing this tintype to the rest in this collection I noticed a similarity.

threetintypesfringechairSeveral of the persons were posed sitting on or standing next to a familiar looking chair with fringe. At first I thought they had all been taken at the same studio as it looked like the same chair.

The fringe chair got it’s name from the fringe along the side arm, back, and bottom skirt of the chair. Designed for photography studios and patented in 1864, it was used into the 1870s. The back and the side arm could be raised and lowered allowing the photographer to pose his subjects in different positions. On PhotoTree.com I found this statement:

It became ‘old fashion’ in the late 1870s and is seldom seen after that.

This statement makes me wonder if the tintype on the far right has been identified correctly. In Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #20 Alnie W. ROYALTY it was dated at about 1893 as it was labeled Alnie Royalty.

Once I began searching for more photographs with similar fringe chairs, I found an entire Pinterest board dedicated to The Fringe Chair: Antiques Photographs.

Using the photography prop as a guide I estimated the featured photo of this post to have been taken in the late 1860s or in the 1870s. The back of the fringe chair can be seen behind the woman, the fringe peeking out under the arm she slipped into the crook of her husband’s arm and behind the elbow of her other arm.

unknowncoupletintypeThe woman’s dress appears to be a two-piece with a long jacket-like bodice buttoned up the front, a skirt which looks fuller at the hem, and a lacy scarf tied loosely at her neck. The dress has the small-waisted look of the 1860s but the sleeves do not seem to have the fuller shape of the period. Since she is sitting you can’t tell if she has a large or small bustle.

The man’s jacket has the closer fit look of the 1870s as opposed to the oversized look of the 1860s. His vest and watch chain are visible. The striped cuffs of his shirt are eye-catching. He posed with one hand holding his jacket lapel, the other on his lap, and his feet crossed.

charlesttHis hair and mustache look very similar to Charles W. ROYALTY (1861-1922) seen in this tintype (left). It makes me wonder if the couple might be Charles’ older brother Chester Ashley ROYALTY (1856-1917) and his wife Julia Hannah HODGE (1858-1924) who married on 27 April 1880.

I’m guessing this stunning couple may have posed for the tintype in the mid- to late-1870s, maybe even 1880. Could it be a wedding portrait?

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #87 Tintypes, Cartes de Visite, Cabinet Cards

Digital images of vintage photographs shared by family members or seen on the internet normally do not include a scale making it difficult to imagine the size of the originals. I finally realized this and, in my last few posts, I’ve been including the size as well as a few other facts about the photographs. I plan to go back to add similar information to older posts.

unkcoupleUnknown Couple abt. 1894
Photo type: Cabinet Card
Card size: 4 1/4″ x 6 1/2″
Card color: cream
Card edges: plain cut, rounded corners
Border: single thin line
Front imprint: artistic gold print
Back imprint: none
Photographer: O. H. Talbott of South Side Square, Girard, Kansas
Scan: auto adjusted

I know nothing of tintypes, lol. I don’t even know what a carte de visite is, lol, but I’m learning these things from you. Thanks!

Andy Oldham of Christian Grandfather wrote this comment on one of my recent posts and Jeanne Bryan Insalaco of Everyone Has a Story had a question about the missing corners on tintypes. Andy and Jeanne’s comments triggered ( as in camera 🙂 ) this post with a comparison photo of tintypes, cartes de visite, and cabinet cards along with short explanations. 

comparisonofphotos600Tintypes (above, right) appeared in 1856 and were most popular in the 1860s and 1870s. They are often identified with the Civil War period as this was the time of their popularity. A decline came around 1872-1878. However, tintypes, or ferrotypes, were produced well into the 20th century at carnivals, beach resorts, etc. as souvenirs. They were direct positives, mirror images, on thin blackened iron plates. A photographer would purchase large metal plates and cut them down to size for use. Plates were trimmed and corners clipped to fit cases or paper mats either by the photographer or later by the owner. In the photo above the tintype, farthest right, is a 1/6 plate and measures 2 5/8″ x 3 1/4″. Other common sizes of tintypes were: 1/4 plate – 3 1/4″ x 4 1/4″ and 1/9 plate – 2″ x 2 1/2″.

Cartes de visite (above, middle image), also known as CDV, appeared in 1859 and was most popular from 1860-1880 and declined between 1880-1889. The size of a calling card, it was more commonly known as a card portrait. The acronym CDV only came into use during the 2oth century. The card portrait or carte de visite is an image printed on paper and mounted onto a card with the dimensions of 2 3/8″ x 4″, only a bit larger than the 1/6 plate sized tintypes.

Cabinet cards (above, on left) appeared in 1866, were most popular from 1875, when the format gained attention in the U.S., until 1900. Popularity declined around 1901-1903. The same process was used as with CDVs but on card stock twice the size. Cabinet cards measured  4 1/4″ x 6 1/2″ – about the size of a postcard. Imprints on the front and/or back, borders around the image, edges of the cards, and card color help date cabinet cards.

These are only quick descriptions of three styles of photographs from the 20th century. If I’ve piqued your curiosity, there are many sites online with more detailed information on vintage photography. Try searching the above terms, as well as, daguerreotypes and ambrotypes. Be warned, you may find yourself spending more time than you’d like reading about and looking at old photos.

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #86 Tintype of an Unknown Man

This very distinguished looking man’s photograph has no identification on the front or back. As with all of the tintypes in the collection, the sleeve or album which may have originally held the picture did not survive.

The man wears his hair short. The damage to the tintype makes it difficult to tell if his hair is parted or combed back without a part. He has no side whiskers and wears a long handlebar mustache combed down sleekly with a slight upward curl at the end. He has a cleft chin and light colored eyes. Even more noticeable than his thin face with its high square forehead and low eyebrows are his large ears which stick out.

The flat bow tie is worn under the turned-down collar of his white shirt. His notch lapel vest has buttons covered in the same material as the suit. The chain of his pocket watch is attached at the third buttonhole. His coat or jacket (the length cannot be determined) matches the vest. It has long lapels and likely buttons only from the mid-section down.

Does the under-the-collar tie date this outfit to the 1870s or 1880s?

tintypeunknownmanrooneycollectionUnidentified Man, ca. 1870s or 1880s?
Photo type
: Tintype
Tintype size: 1/6 plate; 2 5/8″ x 3 1/4″
Border style: N/A
Sleeve: none
Front imprint: none
Back imprint: none
Photographer: none
Labeling: none
Damage: cracks and rust

Could this be the same man as in the photo below? Yes, the chin is hidden by the older man’s beard and his nose looks broader, but look at the ears! Do ears drop with age? In the picture above the top of the ears are at the same level as the eyebrows (high set ears) while below they are just below eye level (low set ears).

mrin21897-lilliegrandpawgolconda-rooney-collection
ca. 1910, Albert Spencer LILLIE 1848-1913

If the man in the tintype above isn’t Albert Spencer LILLIE (1848-1913), perhaps he was one of his brothers?

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #85 The Strangest Thing Happened

The strangest thing happened while I was looking at the tintypes in this collection. I was setting up to scan one of an unidentified couple at a higher resolution (DPI) to bring out more detail so that I could write about it.

Since I had the scanner set up and the photographs at hand, I decided to scan all ten of the tintypes. One of them, the first one I shared in the post 52 Ancestors: #14 Albert Spencer LILLIE (1848-1913) ~ Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can, was glued to a card with writing on the front bottom and on the back.

ASLWhen I wrote about this tintype in April 2015 (has it been nearly two years?), I had only the digital images I received per email from my cousin Joe. It was my first post using the photographs from his collection and I knew nothing at all about vintage photography.

With the actual tintype in hand, I noticed the card it was attached to was loose at the bottom where the name A. S. Lillie was written. I took a closer look, shining a light in under the plate. It was loose all along the edges. As I was handling it, the card seemed to barely be attached. I pulled the card away a bit and it detached from the plate.

The tintype must have been stored in humid conditions with the card. It appears to have rusted and gotten stuck and not glued on purpose. Once detached, I saw the card was actually a carte de visite.

1870albertspencerlilliecdv1870albertspencerlilliecdvbackAlbert Spencer LILLIE ca. 1870
Photo type: Carte de visite (CDV)
Card size: 2 3/8″ x 4 1/4″
Card color: beige
Card edges: rounded corners
Image size: ca. 1 1/2″
Border: a thin inner & a thicker outer line
Front imprint: none
Back imprint: none
Photographer: none
Labeling: handwriting on back & front
Damage: rust from a tintype

Four different persons wrote information on the back of this CDV, which appeared to identify the tintype when I wrote the original post. In ink at the top: Albert S. Lillie. Directly below in pencil and very faded only the beginning of Albert can be read. In the center, again in pencil, A. S. Lillie age 22 yrs. At the bottom, in yet another handwriting in ballpoint pen, Isaac Lillie father.

Albert S. LILLIE (1848-1913) is my closest relative in this collection of old photos. He was the nephew of my 3rd great-grandmother Clementine (Gowing) DEMPSEY.

The border is a thin inner line and a thicker outer line and the corners are rounded. This as well as the size and placement of the image help to date the picture between 1869-1872. The image on the carte de visite is a young man identified as Albert Spencer LILLIE age 22 years as written both on the front and back. Born in 1848, this would mean the CDV is from about 1870.

1870albertspencerlilliecdvcropped
Close up of the image on the carte de visite

Is there a method to remove the rust from the front of the photograph? Should I try using a razor blade to lift a little bit of rust from the outer part of the card – as a test? I would love to be able to see his whole face and be able to compare it with the other two photos I have of Albert.

While scanning the tintypes I made another discovery which I will share next week. I hope it will make up for leaving you hanging with yet another mystery to be solved. Who is the man in the tintype which was attached to Albert’s photo?

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #84 Unknown Couple abt. 1894 (Part II)

unkcoupleUnknown Couple abt. 1894
Photo type: Cabinet Card
Card size: 4 1/4″ x 6 1/2″
Card color: cream
Card edges: plain cut, rounded corners
Border: single thin line
Front imprint: artistic gold print
Back imprint: none
Photographer: O. H. Talbott of South Side Square, Girard, Kansas
Scan: auto adjusted

After publishing last week’s post, several of my readers left comments which led to the necessity to re-think my post and write an update.

The Identity of the Man in the Photograph

My cousin Joe was the first person to comment on my post last week.

As my Mother would say “I swanee” that looks like Quincy Royalty as a young adult. Referring to the portrait taken in Kansas as well. His hair being parted on the other side might be an image reversal, but it sure looks like him.

Joe had me comparing the photo of young John Quincy Royalty (1866-1918) and checking his timeline. The photo on the left is a flipped closeup of John as Joe thought one of the two images may have been a reversed image.

royaltyquincyyoungadultunkcouple

Side by side, do they resemble each other? The identity meter on PicTriev, will compare two faces and show one of four results: from the same person, nearly from the same person, quite look-alike, and from different persons. The comparison of the above two pictures brought back from different person.

Using the similarity meter on PicTriev, I compared the above two pictures and got 78% similarity. This is more or less the same results I obtained using PicMonkey’s fade tool to compare the two overlapping photos. This was not as easy as it appears as the angle to the camera was not the same in the two photos. The positions of the mouth, nose, eyes and hairline are close matches.

mergedmen
The light looking eyes of the couple in the photo made me wonder if the soft tones were showing the true appearance of the couple. Quincy’s eyes appear much darker. If there was an image reversal, it would more likely be the couple photo as Quincy has his part on the same side when photographed in Kansas and in New Mexico.

The Identity of the Woman in the Photograph

Last week I wondered if the woman may have been the same person as the young girl on the left in this photo. The similarity meter showed 42% resemblance. Vera Marie Badertscher of Ancestors in Aprons explained this better than I could.

ireneolivecropped
Irene [surname unknown] (left) and Olive Royalty

I don’t see the resemblance to Irene. Although we can only see one ear in the younger lady, it sticks out slightly, and the woman in the top photo has small, flat-to-the-head ears. The mouth of the younger girl doesn’t look wide enough, either.

Vera brought up some good points about the younger girl and the woman not resembling each other. She also wrote:

I was really struck by what a sweet-looking young man that is. Worth tracking down. Is there a history of that county of Kansas in the late 1800’s-early 1900’s? The young man looks younger than the woman to me. She could almost be his mother.

As mentioned above, Joe thought the man may be John Quincy Royalty. He was a schoolteacher in Kansas before 1900 and there is no known marriage for him. His mother died about 1874 and his stepmother died in 1892 at the age of 62 so Vera’s theory of a mother and her son wouldn’t work.

If not mother–older sister?

Quincy had three sisters who were living around this time. Tillie, Florence, and Olive. The three were married by 1892. Could one of them have traveled to Kansas and had her photo taken with him? Could the photograph have been taken earlier? I used the similarity meter on PicTriev to compare the young woman with Quincy’s sisters.

The similarity meter on PicTriev came up with a 93% match on the young woman and Tillie and same person for the identity. The photo of Tillie (bottom) was taken about 1895. Are they the same woman?

womansmalltilliesmallJust for fun, I compared the unknown man and the unknown woman. They have an 86% resemblance according to this tool. This is even higher than the resemblance between the unknown man and Quincy. The resemblance of the woman with Florence was 66% and with Olive was 69%.

One last thought, is the brooch worn by Tillie above the same as the one worn by the unknown woman on the left? I got out both of my magnifying glasses and had a closer look. They are not the same. The unknown woman’s brooch looks almost like letters and Tillie’s is a bit larger.

magnifyingglassAre the unknown man and woman, brother and sister? Could they be John Quincy and Mathilda J. “Tillie” ROYALTY?

A Little More Help

Luanne Castle of The Family Kalamazoo made some interesting comments about the man’s collar or lack of collar.

So interesting that he wears no collar in that first pic! Would it be because he couldn’t afford a new collar and his old one was ruined or lost or something?

I thought it was more of a trend to not wear the collar.

Hmm, maybe .. . . But I know it was hard for men to get collars sometimes. They always had to budget for them.

Comments like these make me want to learn more about vintage photography and fashion of the times. Luanne has a wonderful collection of old photographs and postcards on her blog. I need to take another (closer) look at hers and mine. You see things differently when you become more interested in learning about them.

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2017, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #84 Unknown Couple abt. 1894

This photograph of an unidentified couple measures 6 1/2″ x 4 1/4″. The rich soft tones of the image are marred by a stain on the right side of the picture. At first, I thought a top layer had been scratched off of the photo. The original shows this is actually a piece of paper stuck to the picture. Very likely another photograph stuck to this one when the water damage happened.

unkcoupleoriginalscanThe front includes the photographer’s name and location in golden artistic print common around 1882-1900. The rounded corner and single line border dates this cabinet card to the 1889–1896 period. The photo was glued to a light cream colored heavy card stock and there is no writing or printing on the back.

The collar of the man’s shirt is a low band without an actual collar. His tie has a large knot and is tucked to the side as was the style in the late 19th century. His hair is cut short and neat.

The woman’s dress has a high neckline with lace, leg-of-mutton sleeves, and a wide cape-like collar bordered with black venitian lace similar to that around the neck. A pin is attached to the middle of the high neck of her blouse. Her face is framed in tiny ringlets instead of bangs while the rest of her hair appears to be put up in a bun at the back of her head.

unkcouple
Auto adjusted.

O. H. Talbott who had his business in Girard, Kansas, worked as a photographer from 1894 (or perhaps earlier) until just before 1910. No information was found for a photographer of this name. To place his occupation in Girard during a certain time period I had to draw up a short biographical sketch from information found in census records and his children’s records.

  • Othniel Henry Talbott was born in 1853 in Indiana.
  • In 1860 he was in the household of Lorenzo Dow Talbott and Elizabeth Allen, likely their oldest child, in Greencastle Ward 5, Putnam County, Indiana.
  • Sometime after 1862 and before 1866 the family moved to Iowa. In 1870 they were living in Yellow Springs, Des Moines County, Iowa.
  • In 1880 Othniel was 26 years old, single, living with his parents in Mediapolis, Des Moines County, and working as a blacksmith.
  • In 1885 when the Iowa state census was taken, he still working as a blacksmith and living in his parents’ household.
  • A change in profession and residence took place during the nine years period between 1885 and 1894.
  • Othniel married Genelia Richie about 1892 and their first child, a son, was born in January 1893 in Fairbury, Jefferson County, Nebraska.
  • In January 1894, O.H. Talbott was running advertisements in The Girard Press for his photography business.
  • In August 1894 O.H. Talbott went to Muskogee in the Indian Territory while his wife and child visited in Paola, Linn County, Kansas per a snippet in The Girard Press of August 23, 1894.
  • He must not have remained long as in 1895 they were in Paola and his parents and one of his brothers living in his household. Othniel was working as a photographer per the 1895 census.
  • In November 1897, when their 2nd son was born, the couple was still living in Paola.
  • In 1900 they were in Eldorado Springs, Cedar County, Missouri, where Othniel was working as a photographer.
  • A third son was born in September 1904 in Eldorado Springs where Othniel H. Talbott applied for a patent on 5 June 1908 for a photographic-plate holder.
  • In 1910 they were back in Potosi in Linn County, Kansas, where he was working his own mortgaged farm.
  • The 1915 state census showed Othniel, a farmer, and his wife with their two youngest sons in Potosi.
  • By 1920 the couple and their youngest son moved to Gates, Campbell County, Wyoming where land was acquired and farmed. He was still farming in 1930.
  • Othniel died in 1938 at the age of 85 and was buried in Basin. He had likely retired from farming and moved there between 1930 and his death in 1938.
  • In 1940 his widow was living in Basin, Big Horn County, Wyoming, with their son youngest son, daughter-in-law, and granddaughter.
  • His wife who was 19 years younger, died in 1954 and was buried beside him.

Since this sketch points to O.H. Talbott doing business in Girard, Kansas, in January 1894 and until August of the same year, I wonder if his business in the town may not have gotten off to a good start. Paola is 73 miles north of Girard and I do not believe Othniel would have commuted to work. It is more than likely his business in Girard was short lived and this photograph may be one of very few, if any, which survives.

youngoliveThere is another photograph in this collection which was taken in Girard at Bell’s Studio in the early 1880s. It was featured in Old Photographs Saved From Trash Can ~ #18 Olive ROYALTY 1871-1949 and shows a young Olive (right) and another girl who was only identified as Irene (left). How Olive came to be in Girard to have her portrait taken with Irene is unknown. Could Olive’s friend Irene be a younger version of this young woman with the man? When comparing the two photographs the difference in the color of the eyes stands out. Could the soft tones of the photo taken by Talbott cause the young woman’s eyes to appear lighter? Can a resemblance be found between the young woman and Irene?

bestwishescathy1

More about this collection, how it came to be in my possession,
and links to previous posts in the series can be found here.

Please contact me!
Are you related to a person mentioned in this post? Send an email to
openingdoorsinbrickwalls @ pt.lu or message me on my Facebook page
Opening Doors in Brick Walls.

© 2016, copyright Cathy Meder-Dempsey. All rights reserved.

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